Speaker 2 Paul Schindeler (00:28):
Paul Schindeler, I'm CEO of data matters. Data Matters is, uh, an Hitachi partner and, uh, we have been delivering storage solutions and archiving solutions for over the last 20 years
Speaker 3 Sander Ijzanovitch (00:39):
Sander Ijzanovitch. Uh, I'm uh, currently working for the city of Amsterdam as a team lead information management, uh, and I've also been, uh, uh, quite involved in the setup of the digital part of the dam subsidy archives
Speaker 4 Bert de Vries (00:55):
My name is Bert de Vries um, working for the city of Amsterdam and the director of the Amsterdam city archives for five years now and are proud to do it,
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Which leads us nicely into the kind of opening we know we're here today, notionally to talk about the Amsterdam city archive, um, and really how, um, it's its journey towards digital, uh, digitalization, and really to start it, you know, explore some of the reasons why, and some of the experiences and that journey, but I guess, first of all, and I guess this question is directed to yourself, um, uh, Zander and, and Bert's, um, uh, at the risk of, uh, of a stupid question, you know, what exactly is the Amsterdam city archive? And I guess it is fairly self-explanatory, but what exactly is it? What's its function and what's its purpose?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Well, actually it isn't, it's not a stupid question because it's really difficult to explain the whole of it. Uh, people, uh, know us as historical researchers are researching in family history or other types of, of, uh, research, actually, we have, uh, in a lot of, uh, democratic countries, an archive law, which is about access of information, all the archives who are going, uh, to the Amsterdam archives are accessible for free, except for some terms as privacy and all that kind of things. And nowadays we get is, uh, archives from the city of Amsterdam after 20 years, it becomes 10 years. So it's quite actual information. Um, and of course, then we have our features as a collection and preservation and making accessible the archives availability information services presentations as well. We have a beautiful building in Amsterdam where we have exhibitions and other events. So it's quite a broad, uh, scheme of functions actually.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I know that one of the things that I've noticed in some of the materials that, um, the ACA provides, is it, um, somewhere I read that it is the world's best municipal archive, um, which, uh, which I think is great. So in personally, I I'm, I'm a, I'm a big fan of directness. So is that, is that a reasonable, um, is that a reasonable statement to make?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Of course it is actually, we always says it's the most beautiful municipal archives, but it's close. It's close. Uh, well actually, I've, I've a couple of reasons - we are in a beautiful building, but there are more archives in the world that have a beautiful building. So there's more, of course, um, it's about Amsterdam and its history and Amsterdam's famous and, and quite intriguing city. Nowadays, uh, I think 850,000 people are living in Amsterdam. And if you, if you're talking with a New Yorker, they say, what did you say? Yes, only 850,000 inhabitants. And then it’s such an international city with uh beautiful collections and, and there we are a little bit different than most archives. We collect, uh, pieces of art and, uh, all kinds of collections, which makes, uh, our collections so, uh, enormous, uh, rich, and one of the most beautiful collections we have. That's the archives of the notariates in Amsterdam, it's on the, uh, world's heritage list off a UNESCO. Uh, you, you can, you can reconstruct daily life in that archives. And we are doing that with digital techniques. We, we talk about it a little bit later. I think. Then of course it isn't digitization program we have with makes us, um, maybe the best or the most beautiful, uh, archives in the world. Uh, we are leader in digitization, I think. And, and in the end, I always say, it's our employees, our employees are so wonderful in their, in their motivation to work for the, uh, for the people of Amsterdam in Amsterdam itself or worldwide. Uh, that's always the reasons I, I say we are the best or the most beautiful archives in the world.
Wonderful. And that that's, that's given a great summary. Um, I guess then my next question, and you've already alluded to the fact that that obviously along with many other institutions, um, the Amsterdam city archive, physically, the building is closed right now. And, and to some degree, I should think that answers the question about why you needed to digitize, but I'd like to broaden that out and I'd like to get, um, I'd like to get some understanding about why the, the city archive wanted and needed to digitize and, um, you know, what were its key imperatives in that regard, first of all, and then what were the challenges that this represented?
Well, I, I talked about access to information and of course, digitized information is far more accessible than paper records, which you have to fit in a building in, in, in the country and you have to travel. And it takes a lot of time to come in to subscribe, subscribe, uh, go to the reading room before you have your first files on your table, that half of the morning has gone already. And, uh, so if you have digital techniques, it's, it's, uh, it's a wonder for archives to have that and digitize, uh, your records, which are most, most, uh, used. And that's, that's the one thing, The other thing is that you can create participation. Uh, if you have digitized the records we have in this project of the notariates, uh, we have made, uh, a project of participation where more than thousand people are working together with the city archives to make them accessible, to index all those records. And that's another way to attract people to your institution. So you have accessibility and you have your, uh, community building thing, which you can, uh, which you can do with digitization. And that's, that's a marvellous combination. I think we, we are, we are far more popular after digitization, then all those artifacts in an old building, sitting there to wait for somebody to come.
Um, yeah, of course. Uh, Bert so explained the first part of digitization was, uh, having a safe place to store all also the digital archives, which were partly, uh, digital born because yeah, we now a days we all create documents and information in, in all kinds of systems, but we also had a large scale digitization of all kinds of paper, um, archives, and in order to be able to do that, we have an institutional. So, uh, that controls the archives so, uh, the, the storage and, uh, the maintain the availability of those digital formats in order to be able to, uh, discard of the paper after digitization, it has to be a solid solution and it has to, and not only the solution itself, but also the surroundings have to be quite solid. So you have to have a staff that is, uh, knowledgeable. You have to, uh, you got to have finance that is capable of sustaining that for a long period of time. Um, so we also have to set up those things in order to be able to maintain the records, the digital records for long period of time and long period of time is intangible indefinitely.
Yes, I must say when I hear Bert and Sander talking again, uh, yeah, I feel quite, uh, humble, uh, when I, uh, look well what your organization is accomplishing, uh, and not only, uh, when you go to the, archive, visit the archive physically, but also, uh, the way they have been making all the assets, uh, uh, accessible through, uh through the internet is that, um, yeah, our partnership started around 12 years ago. And actually what we did is deliver, uh, a toolbox based on, on Hitachi technology. And from that point we started, uh, we started building the environment, uh, Sander was involved from the start on, uh, SLB delivered. Uh, let's say, uh, the information infrastructure, which is completely Hitachi based. And on top of that, we started to, uh, integrate, uh, the infrastructure with, uh, the tools which were, uh, in place, uh, with the city of Amsterdam. So yes, and from that point, it did grow and grow and grow, and we started to, to connect more, uh, uh, collections resources to that. And, um, yeah, that took us around 12 years until today. Uh, and, uh, Hitachi, it is still the foundation of that. And so the infrastructure foundation of that.
So, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm certain, you know, given seven, 700 years of history there, we ask, there's going to be Some, some sensitive material and some, probably some quite valuable material included, um, within the archives materials. And, um, you know, and I should imagine that things like GDPR and compliance and security and, uh, and availability were probably quite key touchstones in, in, in the process. Um, is that something you would agree with Bert?
Yeah. That's one of the new aspects of, uh, access to information. Uh, so firstly we'll have a big of success and then you have new, new privacy laws and, uh, and that, and that kind of things. We are wrestling with those principles. Actually, I w I want, I want it for free. Information has to be accessible and for free. When, when I started in the city archives, we had a payment model, uh, because we had no other funding then, uh, then payments. I abolished that it's it's for totally free, and we want to have open data strategies. So all the things we digitize now are accessible on the internet, but of course, because of the problems around Facebook and the big tech companies who use this, our data, and a reaction to that now we are faced with, uh, privacy matters. And, uh, that's, that's a difficult thing.
If, as long as you, uh, watch the files within our building, you can look quite easily sometimes in files, which are not totally open it's, it's, it's a trustee with your clients. You can do, but if you have publications on the internet, everybody can watch things. So, so now we are, we are looking how to do that. And actually we try to be progressive in that and a lot of colleagues already took some files off the internet to protect them better. Uh, and we, we are searching for solutions that we don't have to do that, but, uh, make the files less accessible if it comes to privacy. And that's a difficult, uh, that's a difficult, uh, thing because yeah, you have to, you have to stand back a little bit,
It’s sometimes very difficult because there are numbers of the number of laws that's applied to the same information. Uh, and also there's a difference like Bert also said like how you access the information. There's a difference in, in law making, what is allowed and what isn't we all ready had in the Netherlands. We had a government law for, uh, which is quite similar to what we now have as the GDPR. So a lot of things were already in place, but it's now more in the spotlight that it has to be compliant in every aspect and not every situation is already developed through and through how the legislation is affecting the way in which we can, uh, provide it to the outside world, because that's what we ultimately want.
We have been working with Amsterdam City Archives and next to that, with more organizations within public administration, uh, like, uh, local communities, uh, public archives, but also with, uh, with a national organization for, uh, for social care. And we always try to, uh, to look with our customers into let's say the GDPR or the privacy, or the security, uh, uh, sides of the work. But it's, it's not that you can deliver a tool set with which you can, you can fix everything as, so sometimes we need to develop something new. Uh, for instance, if you, uh, publish information on the internet, then sometimes you need to mask some of the information or you need to hide some of the information. So, and it's, it's not that we just have a fixed wall, a solution for that. So what normally happens is that we start talking with our customers like Amsterdam City Archives, and say, okay, what are the requirements?
And how can we come up with a solution? And coming up with a solution can also mean that we find the right combination of tools together, that we, uh, implement those tools, that we run a proof of concept and that we build a solution together.
So, so in that sense, it was very much a collaboration?
Yes, it's, it's not, uh, that we can, that we have something like an off the shelf product, which solves everything as some of the functionality needs to be developed, but that's also part of the partnership that we deliver infrastructure. Uh, but, uh, the, the, the ma the main part of the partnership is to, to work together, uh, and develop the environment. And of course the world changes, uh, you know, how the world changed, uh, around nine months ago. And so, and we didn't, we didn't have off the shelf product solutions for that. So we needed to develop it.
It is an interesting joint journey we made, because when you're talking about imperatives, indeed partnership is very important. And when we, when we started, it was actually more focused on the backend, the digital repository. And, uh, we made it with Hitachi and Data Matters and was a successful cooperation where yet, I think the first digital repository in the Netherlands, which was fit for long, long time storage. And now nowadays it's more a supply chain from that infrastructure to, uh, public services. And there are, you meet your customer and then privacy. And so on plays a role. When you have to rediscov…, rediscov.. where do we evaluate your digital infrastructure and how it works. And that's, that's an interesting process. And, uh, we always want to have the position of the researchers and the citizens. So of course, privacy is very important, but the historical research they want to do, for instance, in the files of the second world war, there's still privacy matters in that, but, but we want to facilitate historical research.
So there are the different interests groups on the one hand, the people who want to have their privacy and the other, the historical researchers who want to do research. And we have sometimes, uh, uh, meetings with the privacy authority in the Netherlands, and they are talking for instance about scraping. They, they are, they are worried that insurance companies are scraping, uh, searching personal information about people and, uh, th um, diseases, which were in past times, for instance. So, so there're a few different, different interests, and then you have to translate that to your digital infrastructure. And it's very, very important in masking as one of the techniques, uh, which you can, uh, can use. Yeah.
Were there any particular hurdles or difficulties that, that had to be overcome during the process and was it, was it, what did the process look like? W w was it at least a reasonably, um, a reasonably comfortable, a reasonably smooth experience. Sander, perhaps you'd like to pick that up first.
Like every process it has its ups and downs. Of course, when we started, we had a big project with, uh, arch, which holds all the personal information of the citizens of Amsterdam. So that was the older, uh, uh, information, but there, we also encountered that, uh, a lot of that information was, uh, for instance, if you were, there were fields on that card, which showed the religion and app, we had to blank those out. So we had to develop a system that automatically blank certain fields in a certain scan, um, it, for in order to be able to do, uh, make it public to the, uh, for researchers. And, uh, and so on,
Speaker 1 (19:48):
W was there anything in particular about the last year or the experience you've had during the pandemic that that's, that's had a particular impact or that's changed that the digital, the digitalization journey?
Uh, yes, but not, uh, directly related to what, uh, Amsterdam city archives is doing. Uh, but what we of course have seen is that, uh, many people like we do now are working from their home place, which means that, uh, documents are shared. Uh, and yeah, we have been looking into, um, solutions with our customers to synchronize, to securely synchronize and share data, uh, habitats, what you see, I think, all over the world. Um, we had some recent canes uh, cases of, uh, organizations, which were harmed by ransomware and, uh, hackers. And so I think that's also a risk, which is more there, uh, with the pandemic situation. And so it's, it's more, I think about data protection than it is about digital archiving and preservation. Uh, but what we see as a company is that there is a lot of need for, for good, uh, data protection solutions.
I th I think the, the, the COVID-19 crisis showed, uh, the benefits of digitization, uh, for the city archives, um, because we have our scanning on demand to production line, and we have a lot of, uh, of data already digitized online. So our customers were very happy with our digitizations programs in these times, because we are, they are not, they are not, uh, locked from all this information that we have in the building. They can still use it. If they ask for information from our files, we scan it and we, and we give it through them. So actually they are quite happy in these times because they can do even more from home and it gives a boost to further digitization. Um, so I'm, I see for our business only benefits actually. Sounds, sounds a bit strange because it's, it's not, they are not funny times. And we of course, have to protect our employees. That's, that's the most, the most difficult thing. Uh,
Well, Paul, just before we move on a little bit further, you know, w w we've touched on the fact that data matters as, you know, worked in, uh, in conjunction with Hitachi technology to end the digital digitization process of, of the archive. Can you just talk to us very quickly about the data matters business and its relationship with its Hitachi Vantara, um, um, the, the, the kind of portfolio is a foundation of your solutions portfolio and, and how that dovetailed with the Amsterdam city archives story.
Yeah. Um, we started 20 years ago, uh, working with, uh, Hitachi, which was Hitachi, I dunno, Hitachi data system. Maybe that time. It’s Hitachi Vantara now, but we, we started, uh, reselling and implementing, uh, storage solutions and data protection solutions with, uh, with Hitachi. And actually we are doing that, uh, exclusively with Hitachi, uh, which means that we don't resell any products from any other vendors. So there always has been, uh, let's say, uh, uh, relation based on trust and equality between our organization and Hitachi. And they know that when we have a project, we will, uh, get along with them. Uh, and we were able to build our, our, our knowledge on the, on the solution.
Speaker 2 (23.58):
And it's, you know, 12 years ago, 2008, uh, we sold our first, uh, Hitachi content platform, uh, infrastructure, which is the infrastructure, uh, still used by, uh, by Amsterdam city archives it's for storing, or what we always say is, uh, is preserving data because Hitachi is built, uh, for storing, uh, but also preserving data. So there's a lot of, uh, mechanisms within the system, which will secure that for you. And so 12 years ago, we decided to, uh, to specialize, uh, on, uh, solutions and services based on Hitachi content platform. And that's still what we are doing. And three years ago, we decided to start our own cloud services, contact cloud services platform, also based on the Hitachi content platform. And we are offering, uh, that service to any customers, customer needing digital preservation functionality, but again, also data intelligence, uh, and data protection, data protection is really growing because of the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, well, we started, um, uh, we weren't quite clear what, uh, what, what action actually, the solution should look like. We had some outlines and we started the journey together. Uh, zero data most is of course, very high on our list always has been, uh, we are not able, we are not in a position that we can lose any data from, from the archives. Um, so that also, uh, made that when we implemented the system, we ran through all the checks that were available and still that's monitored on a constant level that the data in the system will remain readable and will not change over time. So that was a fairly strong point of the, uh, solution.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I'm curious about Paul's first experiences, because they always say, well, you know, that talking about dusty archives, then how did you come in into this market of, of archives? And when, where did you met the Amsterdam city archives first? And what were your experiences you came in with technology and how did it go?
Yeah, I, I've never, I've never felt that dustiness, uh, I, I really always loved to, uh, to come to your, uh, to your building. Uh, but also I, uh, uh, visit your, uh, your, your, your website. Uh, I sure through archives, maybe that's also because I was born in Amsterdam. So I've a special relationship with Amsterdam. Ah but. Um, yeah, we just re we just responded or subscribed to a tender. Uh, I know that I remember that our competitors were IBM and HP and maybe another big one, uh, but we did win, uh, the tender and yeah, from that moment, uh, we, we started our journey together and, and again, implementing, installing, implementing and configuring HCP, uh, is not that much a big effort because it takes maybe two weeks, uh, based on their requirements we got from you. Uh, but after that, we started integrating, uh, the, the, the system with, uh, with your services and, uh, HCP is a multi purpose, uh, infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So you can use it for a permanent archiving inhabit. You can also use it to store, uh, for instance, uh, records from a live SharePoint environment that you can do so many things with the Hitachi, uh, uh, the HCP portfolio. And that's also what we, what we have seen over the last years ourselves. If you want to do data intelligence on top of HCP, you can do that. You just need an additional tool and you can search across all of the archives, you can do analytics, produce reports, you can do so many things on top of that HCP portfolio. And that's for us the most important part. It's a, it's a headache free environment. So we don't need to spend too much time on the infrastructure. Uh, but if we can spend time together with you on designing the workflows, the processes,
What did the Amsterdam city archive? What is the before and after picture look like?
Well, actually we not, not ready yet. Of course there are always challenges, and we want to transform to a platform technology participation of, uh, customers who will not only use information, but, uh, uh, give information back, uh, linked open data is very important, uh, link your own data with the data for other organization. It is already, uh, technically it's possible, but we have to work on partnerships with other cultural institutions and all that kinds of things. That's very important. And we can do that now, before the digitization and the, and the new world of technology. Yeah. We were a building with old archives and it was very romantic, but now we are, we are entering the real digital world so far. We digitized in digital copies, but we get digital archives more and more and more, and you need new searching techniques. Uh, so we, we are only beginning instead of, uh, of finishing, uh, we, there is a lot to the explore and I like innovation. So we have to, to work on to new techniques, uh, all for the customer, of course.
Um, yeah, when we started, it was, uh, actually quite a Greenfield, how to make sure that you could store and keep alive files that were created or information that was created in digital systems because digital systems were not intended to be kept indefinitely. So that was that wasn't a Greenfield where we started, uh, how to do that. Uh, so we started by setting up a system that was able to maintain the digital files in their form, as good as, as possible. And that was the first step we had to, we had to take, uh, because looking towards the future, we also received that from an archival perspective, we can't predict what the next technology to leech will be. Will we have file systems in 20 years? Will we have, will it be something totally new? Uh, what we did see is that in the, the, the vast amount of data is still increasing and it's growing faster and faster.
Um, and then you need to have, uh, some sort of organization that is able to maintain that information for you, and also be able to make sense of it because we can store the data to the, the bitstream on the bitstream level, but that's not enough. You need the translation. There are a similarity towards what we have in the actual paper archives, the old archives. It requires a special skills in order to read it. We still have that in the art, in the digital archives as well. If we now have worked, uh, look to watch, uh, WordPerfect files, it's becoming more and more difficult to read them, and it's, you have to be able to go back, right? You have to make a system that the, the, the bitstream or the original bitstream, you can still present it to something that a human can interpret.
Right. Well, now, nowadays, we are working with handwritten text recognition, and of course, artificial intelligence, uh, in the future, you can use Google translate techniques to translate your old manuscripts from the 18th century, which are recognized by the computer, into Chinese, for instance, or other countries, I think it's possible within a few years. And so that that's the searching techniques. Well, that's amazing what we can do with all this digitization. And we have only, only digitized a small part of our total collection. Yeah. You know, it's only, it's only the beginning. We have to do a lot of work and a lot of digitization, but it's, it's amazing. What, what is to come.
What, what would be your kind of key pieces of advice and takeaways in, in terms of getting our arms around that kind of transformation?
Uh, yeah, we, we've been talking a lot about, uh, let's say paper materials and digitized materials and digital born, uh, materials and yeah. The last one, uh, is, is growing exponentially. And, uh, like, uh, Sander said, uh, uh, there are so many new file formats coming up, uh, but there's also new data types coming up. So the future is, uh, is also, will also be, uh, is also a Greenfield for us. Uh, but what I, my tip would be, uh, that when you want to build a good information environment, then you have to start there. You have to begin at the start, uh, because I know that, uh, we are now doing a lot of work, uh, in, in migrating data from, uh, let's say, uh, document management systems, uh, into archival systems. And there's a lot of reparation work to do that. So when you want to, to, to, uh, to do a good job in information management, then you need to, then you need to start from the beginning. So you need to start thinking about an information structure, a model about the processes, so that, uh, uh, organizations like Amsterdam city archives do not need to spend too much time on doing all those reparations. Uh, but that's my, that's my personal, uh, uh, opinion. Uh, we could do a much better job in that standard.
Sander, what’s your view?
Yeah. A number of things, because if you start that journey, you need to probably need someone to partner up with. In most organizations, you don't have the technical know how to do everything yourself. And this part of archiving is becoming more and more technical also, because file formats, have there are technical limitations. So you need to have that, that knowledge. Also, we think you're archival information , uh, archival, uh, organization. And I think like Paul are said like, uh, you need to have a clear understanding of the chain of information that is coming out of your organization. And in the ideal world you have, it's already, when it's created, it's already in direct in the format, which it can stay in for a long period of time saying that that's also very difficult in a, in a very complex environment. Like the city of Amsterdam is where it's, uh, approximately 18,000 employees and a lot of different processes all around or different types of processes. And we trying to do as more centralized, centralized approach to that. But it's hard. It's, it's difficult to do that because there are so many, uh, exceptions on the general rule. And you, you come across that at the end line, which is the archive in which it must, uh, part of the information. The you most important part of it must be held indefinitely.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
It's, it's a great challenge. Of course. Yeah. We have to, we have to concentrate on, on information design, archiving by design and, and capture as, as soon as information comes into life, the metadata should be, uh, should be alright. And then, then it's easy in the future. We, we are changing our description methods. We have now records in context, and we have a lot to do in, in, in this transformation, but the focus has to be on the information design. And that's, that's a very interesting thing, store it once. Use it multiple times. If you, if you look at Spotify and this, this, uh, this business models, they, they make, they, they are so great. And we have to do that within municipalities as well. And that's very difficult because you need another way of thinking. Uh, but that's the old transformation, uh, what we are, what we are standing for now.
Speaker 1 (37.15):
Any, any kind of digitization process like this. It can't rest on its laurels. It has to keep looking forward and, and keep looking to the next issue in the next challenge.
Speaker 2 (37.26):
Yeah, I bet because what we see coming up, uh, is, uh, uh, we are now talking about, uh, data, which, uh, is produced on systems or in social media habits. What is coming up now is sensor-based data. And you know, that there are sensors all over. So what are we going to do with that data? Uh, it's coming from it's coming from video surveillance systems it’s coming from your car if you're driving an electric car, but there's a lot of data generated and it's come up, it's coming from all over the world. Uh, and yeah, we also need to do something with that, but maybe not with all the sensor data, but some of the sensor data needs to be kept for a specific time, but I I'm sure that some of the data also needs to be stored forever. I'm sure that there is a portion of that. And so,
Speaker 3 ( 38.18):
Uh, well, I think that the, the, the IT industry, uh, in, in general, uh, we see a lot of new formats coming up. Um, but we also have a lot of data everywhere in all kinds of formats. Uh, so it would be very good if the, IT, uh, companies also also provided it always backwards compatibility of the data, maintaining that because it's very hard for the archival institutions in the world to be able to, to maintain that information about, uh, and keep that all readable. That that is very hard because we want to be able to say that a certain data or part is also the data part, which was used originally, and that we can only do if the data stream is unchanged. So we need to be able to fuel that original data stream in a way that is very convenient to an end-user. And that's for that we need, we definitely need the IT industry because we can't do that alone.
Speaker 4 ( 39.30):
That’s an interesting point, the authenticity of information, it's very, very important. Of course, you have to, you have to, again, you have to rely on the information you get from an archive, but in the world of, uh, deep, fake, and, uh, it's, it's, it's we have, we have a lot to do about it. And they're well, when w when you use open data and other people are using that data again, and they transform it and other data, the, archives always will be the stable point where authenticity is, is guaranteed. And that's indeed, it's a point we, we need to, uh, we need to keep in mind.
Speaker 1 [Added wrap up]
Well guys, I think that probably draws us to a natural close. I hope you enjoyed it every bit as much as I have, I found it fascinating. Thank you Paul, thank you Bert, thank you Sander, for your time. Thank you also to the listening audience, we couldn’t do it without you. All that remains for me to say is that this has been the Vantage Point podcast from Hitachi. My name’s Gareth Kershaw. Thank you, once again, and goodbye.